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ejbluth
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Joined: Dec 04, 2007
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Whoever is responsible for the trail work on Upper Javalina for the past two weeks your work sucks.

Your understanding of how water affects the trail sucks.
You cut water run-offs into the trail every 10 feet that suck.
You incorporate sudden camber changes that suck.
You block established lines (3 years old), instead of closing of the original ones that suck.

The amount of effort you put into the trail is equivalent to the amount of time you spend hiding your tools. Zero.

Can't believe you people are getting paid for this shit.
 
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rockerc
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Joined: Sep 03, 2010
Posts: 1464
Location: Dove Mtn.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:09 am Reply with quote Back to top

As a regular user of this trail, and as someone who has done a good deal of work on it myself, I think you are being a little extreme with your comments here. The trail has suffered a lot this year with the amount of rainfall, and with the newer switchbacks we had put in that have had the effect of channeling water into stretches that previously had other runoffs, some better than others. Whatever, this trail was built by hikers with little knowledge of drainage and no knowledge of biking. Personally I loved the challenge, but there has to be a balance. Duncan and I had started to put in a bunch of features to alleviate the issues, and to repair some of the water damage from this year. Kim and the city crew have taken this several steps further by cutting in even more runoffs. Not "every 10 feet" as you suggest, but there are a great many of them. Some of these are more necessary than others in my opinion, but they should help the water issues. I would like to reserve judgement until after a few heavy rains, and we will see how things hold up.
Some of these runoff channels have caused some off camber sloping in places, and one almost caught me out the other day. This is mountain biking tho, there is always a risk and trail conditions are always changing, so we need to be ready for them. I am still surprised sometimes by how much one rainfall can actually change the topography of a trail, so I cannot say if these cuts are really necessary until after the next rains. I suspect some will show up as more redundant, and could be reverted to help alleviate the camber issues and restore balance.
As for closing off those "established lines", those lines you mention have been created by bikers coming down the hill as if it is a dedicated downhill course. It is not. It is a multi-use trail that is much more used by hikers than bikers, and if bikers continue to cut these illegal B lines, there will be a lot of bad blood and possible repercussions. I have been closing these lines off for many years myself. Instead of blazing across a short stretch of virgin desert because you want to keep up the speed, what's wrong with slowing and negotiating a turn or two? That is the character of Upper Javelina, it is difficult and technical, and should remain that way.

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ejbluth
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Joined: Dec 04, 2007
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think that I am being extreme with my comments.

The trail has suffered damage from rainfall, but the recent efforts and drains are not where the damage has taken place.

Not every 10ft, but damn near close, maybe 11 ft, for the first 1/4 of trail.

And the b-lines, are no longer b-lines. They are the a-line. Unless you never ride or hike the trail. Example, hiker moved out of the way into the a-line, cause the obvious line is the b-line.

The character of UJT is everything you mentioned, plus speed. And the negotiating a turn or two? I love the turns, I just love when I can ride into them at 10 vs 3 mph, which adds to the technicality of the trail, I guess.
 
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rockerc
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Location: Dove Mtn.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:03 am Reply with quote Back to top

Well, we beg to differ. I have counted 3 or maybe 4 places where the runoff cuts the Marana crew have made that are quite probably superfluous, (pardon the pun), and one maybe 2 that do change the 'run' of the trail, but to say this "spoils the trail" is being alarmist. The heavy rains we had did more to spoil the trail than the trail work has done. Much of the work up there will wash out in the next heavy rain I suspect, but the trail surface itself should not wash out too much, and certainly not to the extent it did this year.
I am afraid I do not understand what you are talking about with your example of the hiker, and your assessment of the 'a' vs 'b' lines. Quite simply, cutting unsanctioned B lines thru patches of untouched desert will only cause broader issues, both with drainage, and with the powers that be. If you want to change the course of the trail, take it up thru the proper channels, don't go out and recut the lines unilaterally, or you risk messing it up for all MTBers up there. There are cases for different lines around certain obstacles occasionally, but some of the cuts I have seen and closed off up there have been simple examples of laziness and "idon'tgiveafukaboutanyoneelse".

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DeepVI
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Joined: Sep 30, 2009
Posts: 2453
Location: Tucson's prodigal child

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:20 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I've gotta side with Eric on this one. Maybe not in tone, but intent. There's a lot of double work and even a few dangerous spots where they cut drainage in the middle of corners. They added drainage both above and below spots that I fixed that simply weren't needed. Their efforts could have been put to better use in spots are are badly eroded. UJ is a mess of a trail anyway from an erosion/sustainability issue. It's also unique and special place in the Tucson Valley. I emailed Tom Ellis about it and have heard nothing. I'd be more than willing to take on UJ as a steward/liason with the county to coordinate such maintenance. This work just highlights a glaring issue with Tucson area trails. There's no communication between the county/users.

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rockerc
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Joined: Sep 03, 2010
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Location: Dove Mtn.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:50 am Reply with quote Back to top

Duncan, like I said, there are a couple of places where the cuts that have been made are not in the best places, but they do take water off the trail. I see these almost at the bottom of the trail nearer the gate, and one in particular could catch someone out. (It has a saguaro spine across the outside of the turn.) Yes, there are a lot of runoffs, but I don't see them really spoiling the trail that much. The trail has always been unpredictable after any heavier rainstorm, and in such a heavy rainstorm, these cuts will definitely take the water off the trail surface.
When I say a heavy rainstorm, I mean the once in every couple of years event that is very destructive. These will, and I have seen the aftermath, gouge out sections of the trail surface badly if the runoff is not taken from the surface.
A lot of the work that we had done up there on the switchbacks has had an adverse effect on the overall drainage of the hill and caused areas of damage that were not there before. As you rightly say, the trail is a mess as it was never built with any sustainability in mind, neither with any thought for bikes. We are all trying to find a balance. Kim and his team are looking at a longer term solution of sustainability, and inevitably their work will not please everyone. That is the nature of this kind of thing unfortunately, but we will not achieve anything without discussion and communication, again, as you rightly say. Telling them that their work "sucks" and throwing tantrums up on the hill and hurling rocks and debris around when an illicit B line was seen to have been closed is not the way to go about things.
Upper Javelina is a beautiful trail, but it is not a dedicated downhill course, there are too many other users for that to be the case.
Let's meet up there after the holidays and take a look over it together. In the meantime, Merry Christmas to everyone!

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DeepVI
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Joined: Sep 30, 2009
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Location: Tucson's prodigal child

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:01 am Reply with quote Back to top

Chris if you know the crew that was working, I'd love to talk to them to possibly coordinate future work. I feel there's an education about the needs of mountain bikers when it comes to trail use. Honestly we're the neediest of the bunch. We can only turn so sharp and climb a relatively shallow, easy-ish grade relative to hikers. The great thing about UJ and WB is that it's the closest thing Tucson has to a DH trail. No other trail, other than Millie has the intensity and technicality. A lot of those extra drains will become erosion issues for a couple reasons. Indeed let's meet up in '17 and we discuss over a lovely tea. Very Happy

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rockerc
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Joined: Sep 03, 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:21 am Reply with quote Back to top

You mean '16 right? Heheh! in '17 there may be no trail left!

I am all over it, just let me know when, but I am off to work the Superbowl in the second week of Jan...

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DeepVI
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:27 am Reply with quote Back to top

Ha! Yeah, I suppose '16.

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rockerc
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Location: Dove Mtn.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

I forgot to add, I have had several lengthy conversations with Kim and Neil who are primarily doing the work up there. They are both keen bikers themselves, so they do know about what bikes need. They do have to be mindful of all users however, and alsso to the fact that they need to utilize long term resources wisely, since these are limited, eespecially with ongoing plans for trail development in the area. Hence the desire to make the trails as sustainable as possible for the long term, and what some see as some unnecessary drainage cuts. In my mind, sustainability can and should include ongoing maintenance of the trails, and if the town cannot always keep this up, it is up to us the users to repair and maintain oouselves. Some of us are good with this, so we can quickly repair any damage caused by monsoon activity. This intent on our part should be part of ongoing dialog with the town, and then perhaps we can lose some of the runoffs that they see as necessary for ongoing sustainability.
Does that make sense? I fookin love Upper Javelina, and I actually think that Kim and Neil have made some good improvements, especially higher up towards the saddle.I love to ride up it as well as down, and it still has enough 'interest' to make both endeavors a lot of fun, at least to me.

Excuse the typos, I'm on my little Zagg keyboard... on sale at Zagg.com!!!

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