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rockerc
Centurion
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Joined: Sep 03, 2010
Posts: 1464
Location: Dove Mtn.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:04 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Up for my morning ride on UJ this morning, and got to the "Turns of Dispute" where I found a couple of hikers fuming at what someone had done to these turns that have been discussed elsewhere in these forums. Some self-centered fuckwit had torn up the work that had been done to close down the B line there yet again, only this time they had piled all the debris on the existing and sanctioned trail. I explained to them that not all bikers were as bone-headedly moronic as the person that had done this, and I really hope whoever did do this has the balls to get in touch so we can end this stupidity. If you have a legitimate beef, take it up with the land management. Don't unilaterally change things and hope no one will notice. You have just done all the rest of the bikers who enjoy this trail a huge disservice by causing bad blood with other users. The hikers in question were talking about taking their complaints to the Town of Marana, but I talked them out of it, I hope. They had other beefs that were simmering about bikers in any case, so I do hope they are cool now. As for EJ's observation that few hikers used this trail, I can only imagine he rides it in the middle of the night, because I have never seen less that half a dozen hikers up there on any of my rides, and Thursday I passed at least 40 people in several groups. UJ is not a downhill course, and if we continue to keep thinking of it as such, we will lose the ability to use it altogether if we do not act responsibly.

With the help of one of the walkers we rebuilt the berm, cleared the proper trail, and moved several larger rocks onto the B line. Please leave it as it is, if you are reading this, whoever did it.

This is what the turn was like after the town had replanted and put in a small berm, then mr Fuckwit tore it all up and I rebuilt it:



This is how I found it this morning, B line cleared out:




And all the debris and rocks piled onto the trail below:





And this is what is there now:






Leave it alone!

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sonoranbiker
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:10 am Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for all of your ongoing work up there!

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rockerc
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Joined: Sep 03, 2010
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Location: Dove Mtn.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks, I hope it is not in vain again

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ejbluth
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Ha. At least one other person feels as strongly as I do about that being closed off. I don't condone the way they did, pretty sloppy and gives mtb'ers a bad name, but...

Interestingly enough, my brother was talking to one of the guides about this exact spot, and the guide mentioned that he thought it was odd that it was closed off in the first place.

I was thinking Rocker, that there is a pretty good chance that while the Marana crew was working, you were talking into their ear about all the B-LINES that need to be closed, and changes that need to be made to fit your agenda.

The trail was drama free, and survived perfectly well while you were absent (and I'm glad your health is better, despite all this garbage).

Just let people ride the way they want to ride, and stop forcing your own ideals on the trail. No hikers are being hurt. No new lines are being made. Relax, ride the way you want and stop forcing people to ride the way you think they should.
 
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rockerc
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Joined: Sep 03, 2010
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Location: Dove Mtn.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:09 am Reply with quote Back to top

Well EJ, I appreciate your sentiments about my health, but I am simply voicing my opinion about a trail where I spend a lot of time riding, and many hours of effort in maintaining it. Contrary to your supposition, I have not been bending the ears of the trail crew, I have been closing illegal B lines since long before they went up there to do the work. I urge you to try and understand where I am coming from. Each time I go up this trail it gets a little more worn, a little more like one long flowing skid mark coming down the hill where people are using it as a downhill course. This was never part of the 'plan' that Martin and I discussed long before any work was done up there to improve it for us bikers. Martin agreed and has written on these forums that we would do so much and then stop, precisely to discourage this issue arising. I am not against certain B lines where they might open up an interesting alternative such as the rock lines over at 50 Year, but B lines that simply cut interesting corners to make the trail faster are not, in my opinion, valid. I have closed lines up there that have been very similar to the one in contention now, without issue, and will continue to do so. It is not that I am forcing people to ride as I see fit, rather a desire to not have access to my favorite trail jeopardized. In an earlier post you used the 'F' word: Flow... this is all very well on a flow trail, but UJ is not one of them. As I have said before, if you want to ride one of these go to 50 Year, or to some of the other trails in the area. Believe me, this garbage is wearing my patience, especially when I find the kind of bullshit destruction that I posted about above. I was up there yesterday and again saw long destructive skidmarks into turns where people are going too fast, tearing up big rocks, and destroying the trail bed. This just has to stop, and by promoting higher speeds, even it it ain't you doing it, the trail, and its unique character, will simply disintegrate eventually.

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rockerc
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

And by the way, I am now, and have been for several years, talking to Marana P & R about this and other trails in the Torts and I can assure you I am not changing their viewpoint by "bending their ears", their views are set as mine are. We happen to share them. You, or anyone else, is entirely free to do the same, altho when they see behaviour such as from the guy who was ripping up the plants and earth they had moved, they may be unlikely to hear.

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manimal
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Joined: Jun 29, 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Well, while you're discussing the future of UJT with the marana trail crew maybe you could direct them to a competent course of instruction on how to properly, and safely, build drainage so that their "improvements" don't cause more harm than good. The work they did this past year will likely prove to be ineffective during monsoon and is downright dangerous for riders with where some of the drainage cuts have been made.
And for the record, I recall a much different conversation with Martin, as we were pushing our big bikes up the trail before he moved, about how UJT is one of the few true DH trails in Tucson and how he was planning more B lines to provide more line options.

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rockerc
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Location: Dove Mtn.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:12 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Sheesh! Here we go again... I won't bother repeating all I said before, but I will say that after the heavy rain we had up here last week the trail is not even slightly eroded where the runoffs have been made. This bodes well for the monsoons, which have badly damaged the trail in past years. If you find these dangerous, go ride somewhere more benign. Personally I like any challenging feature, and there is really only one runoff that is questionable.
As for your conversation with Martin, I cannot comment as I was not there. All I know is about the several I had with him about UJ. I know he would have liked it to be a true dedicated DH course, and I would actually welcome having something like that, with some reservations tho. My point is that this ideal is not realistic with the influx of hikers on the trail. When he and I were discussing the initial work up there, we agreed that only so much would be done, and it was. Whether now he would have moved to get more DH friendly access/features is moot, and I somehow doubt the Town would be happy about it as we bikers make up a small part of the total number of trail users up there.

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rockerc
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:40 am Reply with quote Back to top

You know, I am not trying to be a killjoy here, I am only being realistic. UJ is not at this time a place for big bike DH action. There are simply too many hikers these days from the Ritz and the hundreds of new houses that have sprung up in that area in the last 2 years. Being as how a great many of these are retirement homes, a lot of the hikers up there are elderly and cannot get out of the way of bikers in any hurry. As I said, I would welcome a dedicated DH run somewhere, but cutting unsanctioned B lines and disregarding erosion concerns is not the way to go about it. Right now, UJ is the only realistic access for users on that side of the Torts, and until the Town of Marana gets the other plans going that they have for alternative routes up there, this problem will remain. I am all for advocating for a dedicated DH run up there, with hikers given an alternative, or with bikers having another DH specific trail built. What I do not want is for this to become a bigger issue than it already is, with bikes being potentially driven off this particular gem. It's all very well for people who do not live up here coming in and disregarding these concerns, but for the few of us that do live here and ride to our local trails, this is all we have. Please don't fuck it up for us that use it all the time and maintain it consistently.

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manimal
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Joined: Jun 29, 2011
Posts: 247
Location: NW

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:09 pm Reply with quote Back to top

You mean local guys like me who enjoy it as a dedicated DH run, fix any issues on my way up....but have yet to encounter ANY hiker or local who wasn't pleasant and more than willing to reciprocate my polite greetings as we passed? I've even had one of the resort guides I see often explain to his out of town group the exciting sport of "gravity cycling" being performed right before their eyes. You blame us big bike folk for braking in turns and eroding the trail yet I've seen xc riders way out of their element doing more damage by dragging the tire down the entire trail because they've vaporlocked and can't seem to let go of the brakes. It's a moot argument, we all do it from time to time and ANY use of a trail system will cause damage...especially if horses are involved.

And if you don't see the danger in cutting out the middle or end of an obvious berm, then you're not doing it right. If we happen to cross paths I'll be glad to show you what I mean. (Blacked out Trek Scratch with a thin blue line of reflective tape down the frame...can't miss it)

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rockerc
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Joined: Sep 03, 2010
Posts: 1464
Location: Dove Mtn.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Then you must be in a minority if you repair and make good on the way up manimal. And I have at no time apportioned the blame on big bike riders exclusively, what I said was that UJ is not a place to be a dedicated big bike DH course. The more it is seen to be that, the more issues will arise. Unlike you, I have encountered anger from hikers, and not because of anything I did. I always slow and greet and chat if they are up for it. XC riders are as much to blame for trail damage as any DH biker, and I have seen that often. I have also said that skidding ain't smart, but that we all do it from time to time. Personally I know that trying not to skid makes you smoother and quicker, and damages the trail far less. I get pissed every time I go up there and find rocks that hold the trail bed together torn out on every turn, with no effort being made to repair.
As for not seeing the danger in berms being cut, my point is that those berms should not be there in the first place. Berms have been made near the bottom there with no design for water runoff at all. Last year in the heavier rains the damage was huge with trail eroded down to bedrock in many places. Not only that, but in the places where I can see where people may not like the runoffs near the bottom, if you are having an issue with it, you are going too fast for that section of trail. You cannot see far enough around those bends to have sufficient warning of people just out of sight. Even going fairly slowly I have surprised people right there on a few occasions, and if I had been using the berms as fast as I could have, there may well have been some more serious consequences. All I can say is that you have been lucky to have not had any issues yourself. Others, especially those who may be attracted by the promise of a DH course and not be capable, might not be so lucky. i would be happy to take a look with you, and with EJ some time to discuss this, but I will not be around for another couple of weeks when my current tour is done.

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