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Evil_Patrick
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

30 gears offer gearing options not available on 11. Both more torque and more speed at the same time. There simply isn't any way to believe that the 11 can possibly be the better choice if you're interested in having the best options on the trail for anything that the terrain presents during the ride.

Put the same rider on the two different set-ups and the widest ratios will allow the best performance. That rider will climb steeper ups with ratios that have more torque and pedal higher speeds with ratios that have higher top speeds.

Need QED?

The laws of physics hold a lot of water.

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Evil_Patrick
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:56 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I can explain this in even more simple terms. Gear ratios, sometimes referred to as gear inches, are no different than leverage arms.

You wouldn't try to torque a large nut to 450 foot pounds with a three inch long ratchet, but you sure could spin it on until it was snug rather quickly. Conversely, you could put a 6 foot long cheater bar on the end of a breaker bar and easily apply 450 foot pounds of torque, but if you tried to use that 6 foot long set up to just spin the nut on, it would take a long time.

Torque and speed are inversely proportional.

Now let's just stick with the one by 11 and somehow replace the largest cog with one that had ten more teeth, and somehow make it able to shift. Do you really believe that the same rider would not be able to apply more torque and climb a steeper grade?

Sticking with the one by 11, let's replace the smallest cog with one that only had 6 teeth, and somehow make it able to shift. Do you really believe that the same rider would not be able to go faster?

The inherent flaw of the one-by, that is not a problem with the two-by or the 3-by is that it is impossible to make an adjustment which simultaneously allows more torque and more speed.

The inherent flaw of front shifting is weight, complexity, and reliability. But I can add torque and speed at the same time.

So sticking with the original question, two by 10 or one by 11, the choice becomes that of either having a bike that's gearing can be adjusted to do more or having a bike they cannot.

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Duracel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:39 am Reply with quote Back to top

Do you have any miles on 1x11?

I'll reiterate the point that you seem to be missing entirely -

For the vast majority of enduro racers and trail riders (except newer riders that do not have the strength yet to push taller gears uphill) - the 1x11 is less gears, but more appropriate ones.

The chain doesn't fall off, it's silent, and it works.

If you've somehow doubted this, go watch an enduro race and see who is running 2x or 3x.

I mean, if the OP is asking for insight into 1x11 perhaps folks who have ample time on the drivetrain should chime in.

Or the guy with 3x who is defending his choice to the death, despite the fact that riders far faster than either of us are fully capable of kicking our butts with 11 gears.

I dunno man. You're really wrapped around the axle about it, and really once you go 1x11 you don't go back.

I have times from rides with 2x10, 1x10 and 1x11 for objective comparison and I've only gotten faster each time. Maybe that's just me. But again, I am not racing XC, only enduro.

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Duracel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:40 am Reply with quote Back to top

Additionally, so what if you have 30 different ratios! Do you think your legs need those insanely tiny increments to make it up or down the hill? I doubt it. You can easily make the jumps with fewer gears and fewer clicks.

BUT - for a new rider, I wouldn't recommend the xx1. I say 2x10. Build the legs, learn to ride and develop skills, then see if you can do the single ring.

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AchrisK
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:23 am Reply with quote Back to top

I believe that this topic, similar to the whole flats vs clipless issue. It is a matter of trade-off and preference.

Simple math will reveal that the rider with 20 gears has more options than a rider with 11, often including a higher highest and a lower lowest. The rider with 20 will have a gearing advantage is some situations. You just cannot get away from that, especially when you consider that there is an exact optimal gear ratio for a given rider in a given situation.

The gears found on 1 x 11 drive trains are not "more appropriate". What they try to be is the best possible combination and range of 11 gears for the activity at hand. The appropriateness of a gear ratio is entirely dependent on the situation and rider.

That said, there are different types of advantages offered by the simpler, more robust drive train. There are also people with different riding styles and different goals for which the 1 x 11 might be a perfect match.

You cannot point to a field of enduro racers who are all running 1 x 11 and say that that is proof that it is a more advantageous set and range of gears. In fact, I bet that if you took 2 exact replicas of a rider and gave one of them a 1 x 11 and one a 2 x 10 and neither had any mechanical failures, the 2 x 10 replica would win. But enduro racing is about so much more than gear ratios. A huge part of it is avoiding mechanical failures. I am willing to bet THAT is the reason 1 x 11 is so popular in that particular type of racing.

From what I have read from Patrick, I assume he gets a lot of enjoyment from conquering trails and features, and part of that for him is probably finding the perfect combination of gear, approach, momentum, center of gravity, etc. 3 x 10 offers him more choices and thus is preferable to him.
 
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suvlako
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:41 am Reply with quote Back to top

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on! Are we really suggesting that a 3x set up offers you any real advantage? For what? Riding 60 mph down Mt. Lemmon highway? I'd like an answer to the question, who in this debate has ridden 1x11?

Any gear ratio on a 2x or even 3x can be accomplished by simply changing the front sprocket on a one by and you'd get close to if not right at the same gear ratio. I have never felt "spun out" even after changing my sprocket to a 30 from a 34(on a my 26" no less). My climbing gear is just shy of the gears I would have had on my old 24/36 2x set up. I've said this from the beginning, it's a nice to have, not a need to have. The ONLY real hang up I have is that I can't shift across 6 gears as fast as I could have by just dropping to my granny using my 2x and sometimes that might cause me to miss a techy climb. But I find that shaving two pounds of derailleur, shifter, rings etc etc AND uncluttering my cockpit AND having room for my dropper post AND less chain slap in the granny has far outweighed any cons.

1X is expensive to maintain, although SRAM has come out with a cheaper and a little heavier option . Again, nice to have. Not a need to have. If you can spring for 1x, you'll likely never go back to 2x. If you can't, 2x will work great for you. But can we at least agree that any assertion for 3x is just as my people say, a "pendejada"?

Ride what makes you happy. Unless it's a 3x. Or a 29er. Or a 650B. Or a hardtail. Or a singlespeed. Wink

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DesertRat
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:27 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I thought i'd chime in and state it's probably 99% rider 1% drivetrain just ask Aaron Gwin. He can win a downhill race without pedaling!!!


http://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-aaron-gwin-chainless-leogang-2015.html
 
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thudd
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:38 pm Reply with quote Back to top

DesertRat wrote:
just ask Aaron Gwin. He can win a downhill race without pedaling!!!l


That's the new 'O' by eleven. It's not cheap, but it'll win you some medals and stuff and you don't have to work at all. In fact, brakes are optional on this setup!
 
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Evil_Patrick
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:26 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Consider this; sponsored riders ride the equipment given to them.

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twowheelsdown2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I just switched to X1 eleven speed and really like it! All X1 setup, with the exception of an XO crankset. And i have it set up with 10x42 rear cassette, with 26 tooth front.

I previously was running a 2x9, which was simply a 3x9 that I had replaced the outer ring with a bash guard. When I had it on a 26 inch bike I had a 22 front, 34 rear as my low gear. On my 29er, I put on a 12-36 tooth cassette so that my low gear stayed exactly the same. (compensating for the natural higher gearing of a 29er)

Now, with the 11 speed on my 29er, with the 26 front 10x42 cassette, I have exactly the same low gear as I had before on the other set ups. And I have the same top gear as well with 26x10 versus the 32x12 of the 12-36 cassette.

I am a high cadence rider. I need the low gears for the techy climbs, but I really don't find a need for high gears on most trails. If it is that much downhill, I am usually coasting. Even when I am going south along the fence on the west side of TMP towards Sarasota, I usually find I am spinning a high cadence with one gear left yet. It would have to be a smooth fireroad downhill for me to want a higher gear. On the trails I just don't have a need, which is why I took off the outer ring on the 3x9 in the first place, and shortened the chain.

I lost about a pound of weight off the bike. The bike is super quiet now! No chain slap at all. And a big benefit, is that I don't force myself to ride the middle ring. I used to be in the middle ring, and didn't want to wimp out and make that shift to the (ugh) granny gear. So I would push a gear that my legs did not like. Or would have to make that down in the front 2 shifts up in the back shift, only to repeat it a moment later when the trail leveled out. Back up in front, but that was too much, so a gear or two down on the back. Now, if I am climbing, and I would like to drop a gear, and pick the cadence up, I just make one shift.

So for me, I find myself spending more time in the proper gear for my pedaling style, and that seems to keep my legs fresher on long rides. Add in the weight loss, and the lack of noise, and it is a win all around for me.
 
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twowheelsdown2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

A useful tool to do comparisons

http://gears.mtbcrosscountry.com/#29/2.40I2255I3X29/2.40I324I83
 
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twowheelsdown2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Basically, using the chart I linked to above, here is what I lose from my 1x11 with a 26x10-42 versus if I was using a 3x9 setup with 22-32-42x12-36.

I lose 2 gears on the top end. That's it! 2 gears that I rarely ever use, for the loss of a pound or more of weight, great chain retention, very quiet through the bumps, and no double front back shifts.

For me, I can totally live with that.
 
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twowheelsdown2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:08 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Here is a link showing 3 setups on my bike and what range they give me. I really only lose 2 gears on the top end by not having a 3x set up.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fi6j6f74tnf5gae/Screenshot%202015-07-12%2023.01.54.png?dl=0
 
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Evil_Patrick
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:38 am Reply with quote Back to top

My triple isn't 22, 32, 42. I have a better (for me) combo. My middle and big rings are bigger.

It's really all about what any particular rider wants to have at their fingertips. For example, it just so happens that I often find myself on some sections of pavement (unfortunately) which I have to ride to link up trails. And there is something sick/fun about hitting speeds in the mid-30s now and again. I mean, what else is there to go for on boring sections that makes it sort of fun?

And, as you may know from our videos, Tracey and I do a heck of a lot of high country mountain biking, where the air is ridiculously thin. 10 to 12K climbing. Up there, I sometimes have to drop to stupid granny to be able to stay on the bike. I sometimes can't seem to find enough energy to spin the middle when there's no oxygen.

So, I have a set up that really seems to work best for me. There's no way to get the same set up without a triple. I could come closer with a 2-by than a 1-by, but I'll stick with the triple for now and suffer its drawbacks.

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AZRumblefish
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:52 pm Reply with quote Back to top

All this math is making my head hurt. I went with a 42T giant cog and a 1x ghetto set up simply because it is less stuff, less thinking and I haven't dropped a chain once since then. I don't know my gear ratios and sometimes I forget which way to shift. I just like to ride. Whatever gets you out on your bike is the right set up for you. Mr. Green
 
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