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Duracel
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Joined: Dec 13, 2011
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Location: Durango

PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:27 am Reply with quote Back to top

I've gone back and forth this past year when imagining possible DH builds, and I wondered where you guys line up on this topic.

I hear from some folks that really only folks who are over about 180 lbs "need" coil suspension on their big bikes.

Others say it's just stupid to NOT get coil on a DH bike.

Gwin just crushed the WC DH race on his air suspension with the stock DT Swiss alum wheels... So again I wonder:

Do you think it's still a coils-only club for DH? Or did air finally get it right?

I'm looking at the new V10s and the three builds:

Base Build - DHX RC2 coil and Fox 40 R coil fork - with ZEE drivetrain,
DT wheels
MID Build - DHX RC4 coil and Fox 40 RC2 coil fork - XO1 DH drivetrain
DT wheels

Otion - mid build, substitute VIVID AIR for the shock

TOP Build - same as above, add Enve M90 wheelset

Custom - frame only, with VIVID AIR, and all SRAM build - so Boxxer air fork and XO1 DH drive, Guide RSC stoppers, and then the wheels will be whatever I can afford after everything else...

Overall I welcome thoughts on any and all components. I have minimal experience on actual DH bikes. Mostly just my old Enduro Evo with a 170mm fork and a fox coil out back, and a handful of rides on a Demo 7 from a few years back.

It seems like weight savings is just stupid for this sort of bike, so I'm more curious about performance loss/gains and how significant they are for the money.

I either get the cheaper bike sooner or the nicer one later... But I would rather just pony up for the full-on package later if it saves me getting the base bike and then constantly swapping parts bc it's not performing as it could.

Alright kids... What say you?

I've also considered just getting a Nomad for the daily driver and picking up a coil to throw on it for park days. 1 bike = cheaper than 2 bikes, and I could then pony up to the nicest build on the Nomad.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
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Strunkbro
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:46 am Reply with quote Back to top

I would go coil. The only air shock that seems to work well for a dh bike that is avaiale to the published is a db air. Gwins shox was a RAD shox that is not avaible to the public. Soon air will be the way to go but not yet.
 
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nathan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Just cuz a racer uses it to win doesn't mean it will be best for your average rider. I would run whatever is on the top of the line bike for that particular model, trusting that the manufacturer tried different shocks and picked the best one for that frames suspension design, especially in the rear.

Different frames have different spring rate curves, so one might be more suited to air, as it is a little more tunable to rider weight.

Being a fat fattie myself, I found that coil shocks in the fork worked best, but in the rear, it was less an issue because the pressure is so much higher so the leverage ratio is greater causing overall weight to be less a factor in the spring curve.

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thudd
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:12 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The rear suspension design is probably based around which ever shock it came with. If a manufacturer is offering either one on a high end build, chances are it's a linear rate... or as close to one as they can get, and they're dumbing it down for the public. If they do it right, the only difference will be in close to full compression.
Coil shocks can have a progression built into the spring, or not. The air shocks can't get away from the progression; so the linkage has to accommodate for it. If the bike came with a coil shock. Chances are it has a progression built into the linkage, either a rising rate or a linear rate. If it came with an air shock it probably has either a linear rate or a rise/fall rate. A lot depends on the amount of travel the bike was designed for too.

coils don't blow seals as much and will work if they have blown 'em.... they're just heavy
 
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Duracel
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:08 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Sounds pretty consistent - coil.

My buddy here in Durango offered to customize the shim stacks and the spring rate for me on arrival of said DH bike, and also claims that the lower end package is "just as good" as the upgrade to the RC4 DHX and the 40 RC up front.

His logic: a properly configured suspension doesn't need the extra dials you get on the upgraded stuff.

So his suggestion: "base" model carbon V10, then get the right (450lb) Ti spring and let him custom-tune the bike for me.

What do you guys think of that?

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suvlako
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

If Diaz said it, you can take it to the bank. I had him revalve my Fox rear and it changed the ride dramatically. I just got a new Fox36 and it is pretty damn amazing but back to the original question though. Coil may be heavier(not that much more if you use Ti spring) but what you give up in weight, you'll get back in thr way of two very important aspects. One, PREDICATBILITY.
Two, less attention to dialing in air pressure with altitude changes. My 36 is a very different animal at 10k feet than it is at 3k. Maybe in my head but I swear it's stiffer at altitude. You can spend less time tinkering and more time slashing. I believe Fox just introduced new steel coil springs that are loghter than Titanium.
Lastly, when a nano second counts, then grams do too. When grams count you better be paying your mortgage with the results. Ya heard?? Wink

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Duracel
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Where's the "LIKE" button on this site?

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Jonathan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:41 am Reply with quote Back to top

suvlako wrote:
If Diaz said it, you can take it to the bank. I had him revalve my Fox rear and it changed the ride dramatically. I just got a new Fox36 and it is pretty damn amazing but back to the original question though. Coil may be heavier(not that much more if you use Ti spring) but what you give up in weight, you'll get back in thr way of two very important aspects. One, PREDICATBILITY.
Two, less attention to dialing in air pressure with altitude changes. My 36 is a very different animal at 10k feet than it is at 3k. Maybe in my head but I swear it's stiffer at altitude. You can spend less time tinkering and more time slashing. I believe Fox just introduced new steel coil springs that are loghter than Titanium.
Lastly, when a nano second counts, then grams do too. When grams count you better be paying your mortgage with the results. Ya heard?? Wink


Like +1 Diaz

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Corvus1
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:55 am Reply with quote Back to top

Where are you riding?

One quick thought: That new Nomad can handle some serious riding. It can also fit a Monarch Plus Debonaire (which is more playful and better for trail) a Vivid Air (more DH like) or a coil (Gracia ran a DVO coil for a while and the Mojo folks have a demo Nomad with the new Push Coil). You'd have options and could ride the bike just about everywhere. The V10 however isn't going to be a lot of use outside or resort riding and some shuttles.

So back to the question above: Where/what are you riding? I ask because you mentioned little experience with a DH bike and mention Durango (CO I assume). Riding both a DH bike and a 6" all-mtn bike last year at all the CO resorts, I found I preferred the trail bike for 90% of the trails (Angelfire would be the one exception). If you ride them back to back you WILL notice a difference in weight. The weight actually feels more stable on some routes. Although I'm also not racing DH. It seems the modern trail bikes like the Nomad are just so damn capable that there is less and less need for a dedicated DH bike in most locations. YMMV especially if you prefer the gnarliest rockiest lines, are racing DH, or want more of a straight line plow bike. Not trying to talk you out of the V10 just tossing out another option/opinion.
 
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Duracel
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 1:35 am Reply with quote Back to top

I appreciate it. I am waffling over building a Nomad for park vs the V10. I am really analyzing the hell out of both options before purchase.

The DH bike will see lots of time at AF and other bike parks, and I imagine a Nomad with a coil (or the Vivid) wouldn't disappoint. Still, since I have a Bronson I am leaning V10 just to widen the coverage of my bike stable.

I posted the "what about just riding Dh on a Nomad" thread on a different site a few weeks back and really it's not a bad option.

If I were to sell my Bronson and just have one bike it would be the Nomad, but if I am to have two full squishers I think the V10 may be the better addition. AngelFire and Dh races are both fun fun fun...

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suvlako
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:12 am Reply with quote Back to top

Bringing a nomad to AF really is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. You could do it but you would be out gunned on stuff like Chillin and Supreme Dh. Get the v10... Hurry! Wink

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Duracel
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:24 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Once the funds clear I'll have a new black v10c on the way. I opted for the base model bike with the RC4 rear shock. After Memorial Day weekend (assuming the bike arrives in time) I'll take it to Diaz with my trail notes and see about custom tune options for that O/B Fox 40 R fork.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

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