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Poll
Big Whoops on the Starr Pass Loop
Please don't kill 'em!!
85%
 85%  [ 12 ]
It's too hard! My wookie hurts!
14%
 14%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 14


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Evil_Patrick
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:19 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Recently, I heard that I was in the minority with respect to a specific section of trail in Starr Pass. On the Starr Pass Loop, there’s what I call the “big whoops” section. It’s the series of short, steep ups and downs on the right fork, right after you go through the pass and down the wash. I find this to be one of the most fun sections; and especially fun going counter clockwise on the entire loop (Loop Pass Starr). But I recently heard that the upcoming reroute was eliminating this section. I stated that I thought that sucked because I thought it was one of the best segments of the loop. I was told that I was “in the minority” with respect to that sentiment.

Really?

Do you like it and want it to be preserved?

Or hate it and want a reroute?

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bigworm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:42 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I miss the yetman wash too.

RIP Whoop D Do's

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suvlako
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Whoops and washes. You two are a match made in heaven. I'm not familiar with the section you're referring to but when you say "whoops" I envision blitzing a section of high speed rollers like Bubba in his prime. Starr pass is to Fantasy Island like Budweiser is to Bud Light.

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JodyM2
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:10 am Reply with quote Back to top

I really like the challenge of climbing those three hills it's fun to try and keep your momentum going down so you can climb out. The only way I can see to by pass them is to go down the wash farther. If ya like the Yetman Wash just park at Camino de oeste and ride up that wash to the Bowen House.
 
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sonoranbiker
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:22 am Reply with quote Back to top

@ Art- The "whoops" he is referring to are not high speed rollers or anything similar, but 3 steep, washed-out drainage crossings that continue to get more rutted and steeper with each year. They are all a short, steep, loose descent followed by a similar climb on the other side. The county wants them gone because of sustainability and safety issues, and they are part of the "trade" of old trail for new.

I think a more appropriate question would be:

Would you be willing to trade a short, rutted, washed-out section of trail that ends with several miles of dirt road for 2+ miles of brand-new, purpose-built singletrack that will carry you all the way from the I-beam gate at Starr Pass to the top of Goat Hill, without ever having to drop down to the Sarasota Trailhead and ride the boring 2-track to Carter Trail?

@JodyM2- the new trail will go higher up on the hillside, not lower. The interesting thing about that terrain is that the lower you get, the deeper the washes and drainages get, so to avoid any weird crossings you would stay high. Staying high, the new trail will traverse through some of the boulder fields and rock formations you can see from the current trail. It will be really cool; we just went and re-scouted it yesterday with the ACE crew leader who will be overseeing some of the construction.

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bigworm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:36 am Reply with quote Back to top

It will be nice to get rid of all that two track back there.

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Evil_Patrick
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Poll numbers don't lie. I'm not "in the minority". The people are speaking. The dictators are ignoring.

We want challenges. We want sections that take balance, strength, and determination. It's also collectively called "skills".

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sonoranbiker
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:04 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Your sample size and information gathering method lack statistical significance.

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Evil_Patrick
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

sonoranbiker wrote:
Your sample size and information gathering method lack statistical significance.


It's better than yours.

And, in effect, you've just stated that those who have voted are insignificant.

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TORCA
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

We don't have a dog in this fight as we don't work on SP and I(Art) don't ride out there for a laundry list of reasons, and with all due respect Patrick as you have been a supporter of TORCA, but it's way easier to "like" a non-sustainable trail than it is to work on one and keep it riding well. When you speak of the "dictators", they are usually in that minority you speak of in so much as they are the ones doing the majority(all) of the trail maintenance. I a not saying I don't like a techy trail but just trying to give you some perspective on why they might be rerouting it.

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Evil_Patrick
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

TORCA wrote:


[Snip]

When you speak of the "dictators", they are usually in that minority you speak of in so much as they are the ones doing the majority(all) of the trail maintenance. I am not saying I don't like a techy trail but just trying to give you some perspective on why they might be rerouting it.


My issue is that most of the trail planning, building, and rerouting is never a democratic process. Why don't the techie riders have a say in this? Putting a few "representatives" in place to speak for the riders, echoing the sentiments of the riders is fine, but the representatives need to ask the users what they want. And asking that question only among the riders that don't ride free style, all mountain, trials, rock crawling, and other more tech styles is myopic. There seems to be a "holier than thou" and "I know what's best for you" and "I decide" attitude. That's dictatorship. Inevitably, tech sections get dumbed down or completely eradicated. I certainly never was asked if the whoops should go. I was only informed of their impending demise after "someone" made that choice.

One of the major reasons I'm TORCA is the absolute open minded democracy of the org.

All I want is a network full of choices; "easier" and "harder". Signed forks in the trail, a la Sedona's and Flagstaff's splits that allow this. And even the Upper 50 splits. This is not a concept that is hard to grasp. The Whoops could stay, and an intersection could diverge from the new route, take riders through the whoops, and route them back to the new route. We don't even need the signs. Let the tech riders get their "fix". At the same time, let those that don't ride tech get their "fix".

At this time, the finger pointing begins. "Oh, the county would never go for that". Well, how hard have we tried? Have we pointed out that meccas, such as Sedona and Flagstaff do this successfully? After I get myself out of the retirement prep phase and into the retirement phase, I'll be a "dog in this fight".

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JodyM2
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:28 am Reply with quote Back to top

I think it's hard to imagine a trail that we can't see, the new trail might have more technical features than the old one, but I'll miss going thru the tight section. I wonder if it will go up by the buried station wagon?

 
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mlemen
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:55 am Reply with quote Back to top

Evil_Patrick wrote:


.....

At this time, the finger pointing begins. "Oh, the county would never go for that". Well, how hard have we tried? Have we pointed out that meccas, such as Sedona and Flagstaff do this successfully? After I get myself out of the retirement prep phase and into the retirement phase, I'll be a "dog in this fight".


The "trying" by way of meetings, discussions, trail planning has been going on for at least 10yrs with the land managers (that's how long I've been active with SDMB). The Pima county plans for TMP/Starr Pass started 3 years ago, and there was at least 1 public meeting about it. At all the meetings I attended, we asked for fun bike stuff like progressive trails similar to what they have in Flag & Sedona, bike friendly yet still multi-use features and the like, only to have "yes, but ..." as the answer.

Progress has been made with PC in re trail design, and progress is slooooowww. Can't say much progress has been had with the Forest Service over the years of my involvement with them ...
Anyway. When you're ready to be a "dog in this fight", there will be a place at the table for you. You should join the fun as soon as possible! Very Happy

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sonoranbiker
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

Evil_Patrick wrote:
TORCA wrote:


[Snip]

When you speak of the "dictators", they are usually in that minority you speak of in so much as they are the ones doing the majority(all) of the trail maintenance. I am not saying I don't like a techy trail but just trying to give you some perspective on why they might be rerouting it.


My issue is that most of the trail planning, building, and rerouting is never a democratic process. Why don't the techie riders have a say in this? Putting a few "representatives" in place to speak for the riders, echoing the sentiments of the riders is fine, but the representatives need to ask the users what they want. And asking that question only among the riders that don't ride free style, all mountain, trials, rock crawling, and other more tech styles is myopic. There seems to be a "holier than thou" and "I know what's best for you" and "I decide" attitude. That's dictatorship. Inevitably, tech sections get dumbed down or completely eradicated. I certainly never was asked if the whoops should go. I was only informed of their impending demise after "someone" made that choice.

One of the major reasons I'm TORCA is the absolute open minded democracy of the org.

All I want is a network full of choices; "easier" and "harder". Signed forks in the trail, a la Sedona's and Flagstaff's splits that allow this. And even the Upper 50 splits. This is not a concept that is hard to grasp. The Whoops could stay, and an intersection could diverge from the new route, take riders through the whoops, and route them back to the new route. We don't even need the signs. Let the tech riders get their "fix". At the same time, let those that don't ride tech get their "fix".

At this time, the finger pointing begins. "Oh, the county would never go for that". Well, how hard have we tried? Have we pointed out that meccas, such as Sedona and Flagstaff do this successfully? After I get myself out of the retirement prep phase and into the retirement phase, I'll be a "dog in this fight".


I am always reluctant to participate in discussions like this on the internet, because they inevitably degenerate into pissing matches. Hopefully we can keep this civil and productive.

Patrick- I apologize that you apparently feely marginalized and not-included in the planning process (this is obviously not my intention), but I take issue with your calling our process a "dictatorship." What you are calling "dictatorship" I would call "the decisions are made by those who show up." I have made every effort to be as transparent as possible through this process. I have invited folks to SDMB meetings to find out what is going on and how to get more involved. I have posted updates on Facebook and the internet. I have spoken to everyone around me about the process, probably to the point of folks getting annoyed about hearing about it. Despite my attempts to get others involved, other than some occasional posts on FB or here, there has been little community involvement in the planning process. Most often the feedback we get is that riders are excited about the progress we are making with trails development in Tucson Mountain Park. Folks are always willing to show up to dig (which is awesome!), but few have the patience to hang in there for the years of planning prior to moving dirt.

Here are some objective realities:

1) This is part of a decade-plus planning process. Our involvement started in earnest when Zach MacDonald and I asked about rerouting the Yetman Trail and participating in other trail development projects 4 years ago. We were showed an existing trail master plan and asked if we would like to make it happen. We of course said "yes" to help steer the process in the best possible way. Trails like the "Whoops" have been slated for reroute and closure for years. It is only recently that we have a seat at the table to discuss MTB's roles in the new trails. We have input into the new trails, and some influence in what trails are closed, but this has largely been decided a long time ago.


2) Mountain bikers already have more access and influence with the county than any other user group. They have noticed the effort, time, and money we contribute, and as a result we are the only user group to have the opportunity to be on the ground for the initial routing/flagging process all the way through to being the ones to actually build the trail. The new trail we are getting ready to build will be the first trail in Tucson where this has happened.

3) When the county looks at trail development/closure, sustainability is the primary consideration. Fun is secondary. We can whine about this all we want, but it will not change any time soon. There are plenty of folks at the county who would just as soon there be no trails there, and they have significant influence. When looking at these projects, we need to account for sustainability, maintenance of habitat, cultural and historical sites, etc. Ours is not the only agenda at work here. It has taken years for us to have a seat at the table, and I am not going to jeapordize that access by throwing temper tantrums over things that would not happen anyway.

4) I, and SDMB, advocate for technical and MTB-specific trail every chance we get. Krein is one of my favorite trails out there, and I fight for it every time it comes up (being a non-system trail). Don't assume that just because you don't see more tech trail it doesn't mean we aren't fighting for it, as you don't see what goes on behind the scenes in meetings and via email. I push as hard and as consistently as I can without harming the working relationship we have with land managers.

5) Signs are coming. I am working on the proposal for the stewardship program proposal we are developing with the county. A significant part of this is SDMB paying to make and install signage at the park. The county is waiting until everything is done, and we don't want to wait that long, so we are going to try to get it done sooner.

In regards to your last few questions, I would counter with "how hard have you tried?" If you want to get more involved, I would be happy to schedule a meeting with the county folks so that you can express your concerns and wishes to the county land managers. We also have SDMB board meetings the third Wednesday of each month at Epic Rides at 6PM. Come to a meeting with some ideas and willingness to work, and we would love the help.

If you would rather contact the county land managers directly, feel free to do so. Steve Anderson is the Planning Division Director who is in charge of the overall trails planning process; his email is steve.anderson@pima.gov. Chris Cawein is the NRPR Director. His email is chris.cawein@pima.gov. They are always excited to hear from trail users, and in my experience are pretty responsive to those to want to engage productively.

If you want to continue this discussion directly, feel free to email me at trailsteward@sdmb.org. I would be happy to try to answer other questions or explain my understanding of the process so far and what next steps are.

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sonoranbiker
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Patrick- one other question, and I mean this as an actual, legitimate question (as opposed to a baiting question). What, specifically, would you propose SDMB (and other advocacy groups... I can only personally speak for SDMB) could do to more aggressively/proactively advocate for more tech trails (and ultimately MTB-specific) trails on Pima County land, while also preserving a productive working relationship with the land managers?

Others can chime in here too, hopefully in the spirit of continuing a good discussion about effective MTB advocacy.

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