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BikerDodd
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:16 am Reply with quote Back to top

So... I read the last stuff about UJT; but has this trail became like the new battle ground for people who want to say they've done something? The trail work sucks, that's obvious, but it looks like it's been done then un-done; then done again and the cycle is kind of apparent. It's a shame that such a good trail is so worn out by all of the unnecessary work. If I gave a damn like before, and it was a fellow rider, I would find you and help you go hell. You suck.

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DeepVI
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

That's all county work bud. Tom Ellis of Marana is your POC to express your displeasure. Be nice though. I'm going to be contacting him in the next couple weeks to hopefully settle these issues. Hoping to be a trail steward/POC for Upper Javelina.

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erict
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:20 am Reply with quote Back to top

The best part about this great democracy in which we live is that you don't have to ride there.
Kudos to the county folks and those few individuals who put their time and efforts into maintaining, correcting and giving these trails the tlc they need
 
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rockerc
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:54 am Reply with quote Back to top

I don't know how often you have ridden up there Dodd, but what has been done recently by the town of Marana is by no means all bad. Sure, a couple of places towards the bottom of the trail by the golf club have had some superfluous runoffs put in, but as I said before, there are only a couple of these that interrupt the flow of the trail, and UJT is not, never has been, and should not be a 'flow' trail. If you want one of those go elsewhere. Most of the work they have done is a huge improvement, especially on those turns that were almost impassable due to erosion over between the Upper Ritz saddle and the start of Wild Mustang. The next heavy rain will wash out much of what has been done, but the runoffs will help a lot. Feel free to speak with Tom about your concerns, or come up and help out some time instead of just saying it all sucks.
Anyone who has ridden this trail on a regular basis over the years will know that it has improved much, and greatly due to those people you berate for supposedly using it as a "battle ground".

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BikerDodd
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:47 am Reply with quote Back to top

I was really hoping more people would have something to say about it... The point is, is that when I rode there the other day so much of the work that was done is really unnecessary. I do agree that a lot of it is really good work, however some of the out slope turns are no longer really even flat and they have perpendicular channels dug in the middle of the turns. Not only that I noticed paces, like the one b-line in ujt, where it had been blocked and unblocked. There was debris like larger rocks and cactus chicks with needles in the trail and the b-line had a few holes where maybe it had been dug up or something. I stopped to clean up the debris and fill in the holes the best I could, but I'm sure we can agree this kind of back and fourth on a sandy/rocky trail isn't the best thing to try to preserve the trail. When it does rain and see more use the soft spots and rain channels will only get deeper with more chance of run off and possibly catch someone riding and cause them to get hurt. As for me helping, I'm always down for some good trail work, but, at the same time I don't feel like randomly going to sling dirt is the best thing. Since Marana is doing the work I really doubt they would appreciate our "fixing" of some this stuff our way and I really don't want to be involved with that since I've had a history with that kind of thing. When I wrote that, I wasn't just angry about the half witted fixes with junk all over the trails, I also got caught and pulled off the trail in one of the dug out, out sloped turns. It just makes me wonder why we have to mess with the parts of the trail that don't really need any work done. So say what you will, but I was really hoping to stir up more conversation about it rather than a finger pointing game.

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rockerc
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I would love more conversation about this, since this trail is one I use all the time. I must have ridden up and down it a couple of hundred times, so I know every little quirk and foible there is or has been up there. I have personally closed off several B lines up there that I, perhaps selfishly, have deemed unsuitable for the nature of the trail: pure and simple short cuts so as to maintain speed on the downhill where I feel it is inappropriate to do so, and I make no apology for this. This trail is used by many hikers that are guests at the eyesore Ritz down in the canyon, and consequently UJT will never be the DH that many might want it to be. In any case, the unique character of it is in its difficulty, and in having to negotiate the turns. You would be amazed at where I have closed some B lines over the years, where people have ploughed thru great little jinks that make it interesting rather than a bobsled run, sometimes uprooting small trees and bushes in doing so.
I am not sure what B line you are speaking about, and I have been away working for a few weeks so have not been up there for a while. I do know that there was a little jink up near the top of the first saddle, Upper Ritz I call it, where the B line took out one little jink around a Saguaro that was fun to have to control around on the way down. I closed it a few times, then the Town made a better job of closing it, replanting some bushes and a cactus to discourage this. The town crew saw someone up there one day freaking out when they saw they had started to close it, and this person was hurling rocks and crap around trying to reopen it. Not a good way to win friends. I hope it is not this spot that has been opened yet again. We do not need more friction between us and the Town of Marana.
Tom and those guys are totally open to sensible discourse, and I have had much. As Martin the Flying Dutchman found out, we can gain far more by considered discussion than knee-jerk reaction.
Personally, I would welcome getting together with the concerned parties up there and having just that: a considered and rational discussion. There are a couple of places that could use rejigging still, but I do still feel that in the next heavy rainfall, things will change once again, as always, and we will see much better how effective the work has been.

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ejbluth
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:44 pm Reply with quote Back to top

UJT will never be the DH that many might want it to be

This is false. Cause it is, or was, before that work.
 
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rockerc
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:25 am Reply with quote Back to top

And there we disagree. This trail is a whole lot of fun coming down, but there is simply too much hiker traffic for it to be used as you describe. That will lead to increased friction and potential closure to us if it continued. I have spoken with some regular hikers who were pissed at bikers already, even with the relatively small number of us there are up there. I have seen some stupid riding up there that has been tearing out the trail beds with long skids thru turns, and I have met some really rude riders up there who have little concern for other trail users.
Let's not turn this into a battle ground, but work together with other trail users.

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ejbluth
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:32 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I have ridden out there probably more than anyone else and I encounter hikers less than once every 5 rides, and never have I met upset hikers and have hopefully upset none, as I stop when encountering them.

I don't understand why you think that it can't be multi-use and still fast? Fast being a relative term here. As any decent rider does, look ahead, and you'll be able to see the hikers and slow down and let them pass if they choose.

Edited for skidding: Yeah, I do it.
 
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BikerDodd
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:42 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think riding style or personal belief in HOW the trail is used is the issue, it's not doing so much work on it that in ten years it's getting washed away because of so many variations. I've always been a strong believer in fix what need's to be fixed, not improved. Learn hot to ride the trail the way it is. I also agree with most natural b-lines like the one that I tried to fill the holes in. It's still a challenging route and it's not hurting anything.

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rockerc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

Dodd, when the trail was 'built' it was by hikers and not in any way for bikers. I have some before and after pictures which illustrate how the work we have done has improved the trail immeasurably. Whatever has been done tho, every time there is a heavy rain, and I mean those once every few year events that seem to be happening more often, the trail will wash out a lot. This is not because of variations, altho some of the work does not help with drainage, hence the need for runoffs, but because of the sheer volume of water. I do agree that someone has done some work up there that is pretty stupid: I have had water bars that did nothing but help take water off the trail removed by someone, and there are a couple of very odd 'additions' that predate the work by the town crew that are questionable at best.
As for EJ's supposition that there are no disgruntled hikers because he has never met any, maybe talk to a few? I speak to many of them, and ask about the work we have done up there to gauge opinion. Most of the reactions I get are very positive, but some have been negative, with the same remarks about bikers coming down too fast. The thing is, we know we are in control, we can see the danger if we look and moderate where necessary, but the more elderly hikers who know little about bikes just hear a scary thumping noise coming down towards them, and are then confronted by one of us, sweating and grunting as we chunder down the trail.
You may not have seen hikers every time you ride up there, but talking to Kim from the town crew who spent all day, every day up there for some weeks, and having worked on the trail myself for many hours at a time, I would say that a conservative estimate of usage is around 10 hikers to every biker. Probably more than that.
As for B lines, if they are simply a way to cut a corner, in my mind they are wrong.
And... we all skid sometimes, the trick is to try not to. Much more elegant, and helps with trail wear.

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rockerc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:18 am Reply with quote Back to top

Oh dear! I was really hoping the good work the town crew had put in a the B line in question would have held up. They put in a nice berm, replanted some flora and made it good. Now some turdeating scumbag has torn it all up again.
They have torn out the berm, torn out the replanted bushes, heaped a pile of dead wood on top of living bushes, and made it into the eyesore it was before.
I find this irresponsible and selfish vandalism pure and simple, and will only work against us bikers in general. At least have the balls to take up your grievances directly with the Town.
If whoever did this would like to have a discussion about where we go from here in a positive direction, please have the balls to PM me so we can take this stupid bickering into a private setting. Best wait a day or two so I can cool off a bit tho... Wanker...

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envy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Is there anyone u have in mind?
 
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rockerc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:28 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Preferably the twat that did it...

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ejbluth
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:38 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I saw the re-opened 5 year old straight line up there rockerc, and I'll have "the balls" to say this: When they first blocked it, though slightly, before putting in that berm with a tiny 5' radius, and all the cacti, I opened it again. Re-opening it then was just moving a couple of rocks and a piece of a dead tree. Hardly ruining anyone's work or effort, if so maybe 3 minutes of it.

Then they planted shit etc. etc. and I left it with that idea that we should speak with the proper people if we want to get things done.

A couple of days ago when I rode I saw that it was opened up again. I was happy.

Is this the spot you were referring to in this statement,

"The town crew saw someone up there one day freaking out when they saw they had started to close it, and this person was hurling rocks and crap around trying to reopen it. Not a good way to win friends. I hope it is not this spot that has been opened yet again. We do not need more friction between us and the Town of Marana."
 
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